Take off from the widow thread

[Shooter]

No, no, no... I do not want that impression to overshadow the key points here. We met prior to Sept, granted not much before Sept, but I don't want someone thinking, "oh, you've been together not even 2 months". Next, while yes, it may seem a bit "whirlwind-ish", the topic of moving had to come up. With us living so far apart, there was truly no point in beginning a relationship if both of us were stubbornly holding to not moving. I knew I could not. She decided she was open to the idea. So that's what sprung out the topic of moving, and her older daughter was quick to spring on the fact of where I lived and what that would mean if we stayed together. We HAVE stayed together and are doing great, so for her 1+1= moving. Next, even though the topic of the move is obviously out there, it has already been established that next summer would be the earliest that would happen.. and not only that, but it would only happen if we were to get married before it happened. There isn't going to be any moving in together without the marriage part. If we aren't getting along by then, which is several months from now, none of this will be happening anyway. And the Cath church is seeing to it that I have to jump through some hoops before we can get there (this is another reason for the early talk). I am not a staunch believer of the extended dating being a determining factor in a marriage. Both of my former wives I dated over 2 years each before marrying and they didn't go off the deep end until a few years into the marriage. This person has been through some significantly stressful times, spent an extended time tending to her terminally ill husband, and came out an even stronger person. If she goes psychologically south on me, I will be the most surprised person on the planet. I believe that both she and I are experienced and wary adults, and caring parents, who believe right now that we see very strong positive role models in each other, and see the kind of person we want our kids to have in their lives as they get older. We aren't giddy kids making helter skelter plans to be married before the end of the year or showing our kids what rooms they're going to be sharing or whatever. If I were to change anything about the situation, I think I would have told her to not be so open with her daughters about our relationship. If they had had the chance to meet me and get to know me without knowing so much about where I live and how far away that is, much of this turmoil would not be occurring right now. The older daughter could have established a relationship with me without all of that in the back of her mind already. That is not the case, though, and I have to go with what's been dealt me. So there, if there is a lesson out of all this posting for the casual reader, don't tell your kids too much about who you're dating right up front. She thought she was doing a good thing by having them so far into the loop, but it's now come around to bite her in the ass.

[Shooter]

Gregory, at this point, the local priest was pretty laid back and told me I didn't have to be catholic going into the wedding, and he wasn't going to pressure me to do so. My girl has been catholic her whole life. They are supposed to be pursuing something called a "ligamen", which, as I understand it, may go a bit faster than the usual formal annulment, especially since right now I have the cooperation of my exes. The local diocese is taking a year to year and a half to finish annulments, so going faster than that would be nice. At this point, though, I'm still waiting for the Deacon the priest turned my case over to, to call me and set up an appt. Been waiting a week and a half so far.

[Phillyboy]

Hi Shooter…as I hope you’ll remember, you and I share similar circumstances in terms of dating a widow with kids around the same ages, so I know a bit about what you’re going through. I don’t have the long-distance issue so I guess I can’t say it’s a complete parallel, but there are other issue that my girlfriend and I have to face in terms of the kids that require a great deal of patience and understanding that we can’t just always get together whenever we want. Your girlfriend is probably similar to mine in that she is probably more forgiving and has a closer bond with her girls than the average single mom…it’s just what happens when they go through the traumatic experience they have…the kids had to mature faster than they should have and be there for their mom as much as she had to be there for them. It sounds like they have close relationships with extended family too and that’s good, but even in the closest of families, when you have a loss like this, the family is there a lot during the illness and for a while after the death, but eventually life got back to normal for everyone else and the three of them were on there own to figure out how to move forward so the emotions of everyone involved are very fragile.

With the above in mind it’s critical that you just take things very slow. The 12 years old is not beyond reason for acting the way she is…she’s already had half of her world torn away from her, she’s not ready to give up the rest of it to go move 2 hours away to live with a complete stranger. I know you said you’re not planning on anyone moving until at least next summer and I know that sometimes it’s good to “test the water,” but bringing up to her now is like dipping your toe in the lake in January because you plan going swimming in June…it’s just too soon to get an accurate reading.

What my gf and I have learned through trial and error is that we cannot force our relationship on the kids…they’re just not ready. We have to let our relationship as well as the relationship between her girls and I (and even the relationship between my daughter and her girls) develop at their own paces…in due time it may or may not work out for all of us, but rushing it is certain doom. The kids do have an upper hand here and can definitely make it miserable enough for both of you that the relationship fails.

What I suggest at this point is that you and the mom take a step back for a while. She should have a conversation with her older daughter along the lines of explaining that she likes you and plans to continue seeing you, but as for any discussion of the future, she will wait until that time comes. The daughter may want some kind of promise that she won’t ever have to move if she doesn’t want to and her mom will have to be firm that she can’t promise that, but she can promise that she won’t do anything that she doesn’t think is in the best interest of herself and both girls. You should take a step back from the kids and date their mom without them involved (I know that’s easier said than done) for a while. Over time you can develop the relationship with the kids just as you would any other kid…don’t try to be a father-figure, but just someone that is a friend of the family that the kids like having around. In time, the girls will become more comfortable with you and when the time comes, the whole idea of relocating and living with you won’t seem so foreign. Most importantly, remember not to take the girl’s resentment toward you personally…it has nothing to do with you. I know it’s easy to get aggravated at the kids and feel like they’re trying to come between you and their mom, but the reality is they’re really not concerned about you or their mom…they worried about themselves…I don’t mean that in a negative way…it’s just the natural reaction for kids at 12…as Gregory said above, she’s entering the “all about me” phase of her life and she’s trying to protect herself.

One more thing…manage your own expectations…don’t expect that one talk between mom and daughter will calm everything down an resolve things…it’s going to take multiple discussions, lots of patience and regular reinforcement through actions.

Good luck and keep us posted and I promise to do the same if I gain any particular insights.

[Shooter]

A brief summation from the weekend. Girlfriend and her daughters came down late Sat. morning to stay at my place til Sunday. Was decided by the mom that the older daughter would not have access to her cell phone while here visiting, so that she would basically have to take herself out of her little circle of friends back home and be expected to interact with the rest of us. Besides, she had already been in trouble for something else and had it taken away for awhile, so it worked to have it remain so while they were with me. All in all, actually a pretty good visit. She was pretty good with me, and was actually laughing and having fun while I was giving her mom a hard time about something. She got her phone back on their way home and texted me saying she had had a good time while here and she wasn't just acting nice to get her phone back. Probably one primary activity over the weekend landed the most points... one way to a 12 year old girl's heart is through the local mall. LOL She and the younger sister got to make purchases at their favorite stores at the local mall and got to explore there for awhile. Twice the size of their mall, they really liked it and want to go back to it. Score some points for me.

[Shooter]

ah, how the tides can change. Older daughter continues to be a pain in the ass... intentionally. She stood right nose to nose with her mother and told her that she was doing things to purposefully driver her nuts. She has already been given extended groundings from her cell phone and internet usage, threats of furthering the groundings don't seem to have any real effect. She states directly to her mother that she will NOT be moving. Interestingly enough, the moving thing is something she is perpetuating, as it is not really a regular topic of conversation right now. I mean, her mother and I talk some in private about what things in general we might need to do eventually for our housing, as we will probably need to get a different place when/if this move does occur. But that is strictly between us, not in front of the kids, and isn't really saying a move is going to happen at such and such time. Heck, I just this week finally got things going with the Catholic church Ligamen thing to open me up to being able to marry Catholic. It's looking more and more likely that a move this summer is not going to happen due to various things needing more time to happen. Who knows, though? At any rate, times are not very fun right now. The older daughter IS taking a toll on her mother, which in turn is taking a toll on us.

[gregory]

Originally Posted by Shooter

ah, how the tides can change. Older daughter continues to be a pain in the ass... intentionally. She stood right nose to nose with her mother and told her that she was doing things to purposefully driver her nuts. ... She states directly to her mother that she will NOT be moving. ... At any rate, times are not very fun right now. The older daughter IS taking a toll on her mother, which in turn is taking a toll on us.

I'm really sorry to hear this, Shooter. And I'm not sure what suggestions to offer that would make any meaningful difference.

The daughter is 12-years old ... so she is between being a child and a teenager ... which means she has a combination of the "id" (self-absorption) of a child coupled with the lack of maturity of an outspoken teenager. It may wind up being sustained drama, drama, drama over the near-term.

The only option that I can think of for you is to simply wait it out ... wait for the 12-year old to eventually calm down over it all. In this sense, it sounds like you are already doing the right thing by not talking about it in front of her ... just kind of keeping such plans under the radar.

You are definitely in a tough spot. We appreciate you keeping us up-to-date so that we can all learn from this experience.

[kjmudd]

Is the sex good with this widow?

KJM

[Phillyboy]

Hey Shooter. I’m sorry to hear it’s going so rough these days. The holidays are probably the toughest part for everyone involved. Stress levels are already up for everyone and it’s normally when they most remember special times with their dad, which just adds to it. Like Greg said, it sounds like you’re handling it the best you can by not bringing up the issue of moving or anything, but heck she’s 12 and no dummy, so even if you never even hint at it she has to know that if you and her mom stay together that possibility will exist. The hard part for me about being an adult male, it’s impossible for me to understand the thought process of a 12 year old girl and it is easy to fall into the trap of expecting her to think the way I do, which just isn’t the case at all.

The only thing I’ve been able to figure out at all is that behaviors and reactions are completely unpredictable. Recently my gf and had an out of town event to attend together…my daughter was at her mom’s and her kids were going to be staying with their aunt. We thought her girls would be thrilled with the prospect of staying with their young aunt who’s young and spoils the heck out of them, but we almost didn’t make the event because the 12 year old had herself locked in her bedroom because she didn’t want to go. Yet another time, when she was having some friends over for a sleepover, I wasn’t going to be there because we figured she might be embarrassed to have her mom’s boyfriend around all her friends and out of the blue she was requesting that I be there because she though her friends would think I was cool…go figure.

I guess…just keep hanging in there and taking baby steps with the kids. In time they will mature and grow more comfortable with you and notice that you make their mom happy (at least that’s what I keep telling myself ;-).

[Phillyboy]

Originally Posted by kjmudd

Is the sex good with this widow?

KJM

KJM...you crack me up man...nothing like keeping things in perspective, right?

[Shooter]

Originally Posted by kjmudd

Is the sex good with this widow?

KJM

Actually, sex life with her is really awesome. She loved her late husband, but it doesn't sound like they had a particularly lively sex life (married nearly 20 years). Additionally, he was not able to do anything much at all the last few years of his life, so she pretty much went without all that time. She is someone who is big into committment and monogamy and trust, so her all is geared towards me only. We see each other every other weekend, occasionally an extra weekend thrown in there. And she is insatiable when we're together. I have to practically pry her off of me. For her, the pent up needs/desires and the increased appreciation she now has for enjoying life add up to her having a big libido and an urge to do whatever to please me (and herself). Meeting her, you would consider her to be very conservative and reserved. In reality, she's super freaky. Once, she was begging me to take her in the kitchen, while the kids were playing upstairs. They could come downstairs at any time and we'd have next to no warning, but still she was practically ripping my pants off. I told her I like women who keep everything shaved off down there, bam, no hair there. She texts me nude pics of herself to keep me interested when we're apart. She can't wait to get her mouth on it, and does so really well. She's attractive and in good shape (I guess a positive aspect of her girls being adopted and her not ever being pregnant). She EXPECTS at least 4 times over a weekend that we're together, and more if possible. I can't ask for anything more from her in this realm. Totally satisfying. She's a great person too, cares very deeply for those close to her. Add to it that she's a pretty good cook and has a ton of money in the bank from her insurance payouts, and you can imagine why I have such a strong wish for something long term to work out with her.